Curse

Jun 04, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I highly disagree with having a UAS system. So far Sama probably has the best bet for any kind of UAS system-make it an actual goal that requires some kind of journey.

My reasons for not having a UAS system are not only to allow some kind of skill rewards for those enjoying the PvE, but to not create an environement of horrible messy PvP. The PvP in the game is already at a disgusting level of degenerate gameplay, and by giving people everything at first you're just asking for trouble. Thats what I assume was the dev's idea for the way PvE turned out: let people get streamlined into PvP.

However, this is where I think they've failed. Instead of advancing characters pacefully along the way and picking up a decent amount of skills to tryout, eventually culminating in a PvP experience, you're put on a railroad. You barely get enough useful skills, and you cant even play the style you may want. The better skills and even the elites come at the end of the game making everything else a waste of time for some of us. It's not because elite skills are better than everything else, it's just that you've locked ~90 skills out of people's reach when the game is supposed to be about building characters.

To make it all worse, the PvE doesn't prepare you for PvP enough. I understand the design goal to have new players ready for it, but why make those of us who dont need to go through it for 600+ hours? Between the "tutorial" of Pre-ascalon, the boring missions aside from a few and the lack of PvP immersion with the PvE I think they've failed on many fronts. It's something I and many others have said a while ago and now it's all coming out with the skill acquisition system rearing its ugly head.

If there's any saving grace in all of this, at the end of the day the Devs will respond in some way or the other. They have at times in the past and with an issue this big I have faith they'll come through again.

Nasenbluten · Jul 04, 2005, 12:42 PM // 12:42

My ideas,

1.)make it so when you beat the game with a certain class you unlock the regular skills that you missed along the way (leave the elites for capturing)

2.) (been said many times) add more maps for pvp and make the grind for rune and skill unlocking a lil less painful for casual pvpers not in huge guilds,honestly if your a casual pvper, in arena it'll take forever to unlock what you want when your making 14 points if you win,maybe add single player tournament pvp with increasing faction as you progress

3.)Bring Farming back for pve, now before we all have a fit and start bashing farming and calling me a piece of crap lets look at this idea a little closer.

yes farming is bad (in some cases, like these so called "chinese sweat shop places") but 50% of the community is pve,once you beat the game, then what?,pvp? not everyone likes to pvp.Now if the Pvp people have a way to unlock stuff with faction, what are Pve people supposed to do? Do something they dont like? (eat your spinach son, "but i dont like spinach") pretty much force feeding pve'rs to pvp.and no not everyone farms to get items to sell for huge amounts of gold, as far as i can see since the change to farming prices have gone up on items!

I bought this game because i like both aspects, pvp and pve i tend to lean more towards pve because it's a challenge as i stated before to try to take 8+ mobs at 1 time,BUT ill switch to pvp when i would get bored of that. Anet seriously needs to pay attention to the Pve section of this game or there going to lose alot of audience.

Shot Your Eye 20 R/Me
Burning Hemrroid 20 E/Me
Big Bong Hit 20 N/W

EDIT : UAS,UAR buttons are dumb, go play unreal tournament,this game is about EARNING, in life you must EARN things, you EARNED the money that bought you the game (unless youre parents bought it for you because your'e 10) EARN the skills. Every mmorpg iv'e played had a grind,its to be expected,name 1 rpg or mmorpg where you had absolutely no grind and started with all skills?

Dax · Jul 04, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Bottom line- This is the sort of game that is what you make of it.
A game is only a 'grind' if you make it to be. One person's grind is anothers immersive gameplay. Also both parts of the game are fun, but the easier the game is the more people will take advantage of it. It's amazing how people will pay for a game and go through alot of trouble to skip the best parts just to have immediate satisfaction.

Mr T Bone · Jul 04, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasenbluten

My ideas,

EDIT : UAS,UAR buttons are dumb, go play unreal tournament,this game is about EARNING, in life you must EARN things, you EARNED the money that bought you the game (unless youre parents bought it for you because your'e 10) EARN the skills. Every mmorpg iv'e played had a grind,its to be expected,name 1 rpg or mmorpg where you had absolutely no grind and started with all skills?

You do not 'earn' anything in this game, as you are not rewarded for completing a difficult quest or challenge. Infact you grind for everything, you either farm armours for runes or farm gold to buy the armours. You constantly play through PVE missions with several characters to unlock skills.

If you were to earn something it would be by either killing a very hard boss or beating a difficult challenge. In MMORPGS I have played you did actually 'earn' items when you finally managed to get a good group together and kill that very hard boss that most people would die against. That is earning something, where in this you can have little skill and get everything because you have lots of time. That is not earning anything in my opinion.

Beating the HOH would actually 'earn' you your guild hall, as it is a tough challenge. However most guilds just grind the gold and buy a sigil.

Completing the game could also be seen as a challenge and many people suggest you should 'earn' skills, items, runes from that.

I enjoyed PVE on my first way through, now it is just boring if you did it recently. If I watched a film a week ago I would'nt want to watch it again, it would just ruin it for me as I would be bored. I think PVE is same, if I did it again in a years time I would probably enjoy it but doing it again in a short period of time is no fun at all.

arredondo · Jul 04, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Fallacy #1 "The game will be unfortunately split into two sides with UAX"

Truth: The game is already HALF split (unfortunately). PvE CAN IGNORE PvP AT THEIR LEISURE! They are NOT forced to endure PvP competitive play mechanics if they do not want. The biggest confusion lies on that single ignored point alone from the anti-UAX types in these forums. The 'RPG' of CORPG is completely accommodated. Those who yearn for the thrill of adventure have this game in the palms of their hands. But.....

Those who yearn for the thrill of legitimate competition have got to endure PvE play mechanics whether they want to or not. To play a purely skillful game, fully outfitted with options for BOTH sides to strategize from with no influence from league bias you have to put in HUNDREDS of PvE play mechanics.

"You jumped through 10,000 hoops? The league is pleased. Here's a few elites and a top tier weapon)"

You want a truly equal system you claim GW is? Then you need to go full UAX, or full forced-PvP elements in PvE. Pick one or the other, but don't be hypocritical by ignoring ONE mode has full freedom while the other one is attached to a PvE ball and chain. Here's your balance if you "upgraded" PvE:

"You won 500 PvP matches? The league is pleased. You may talk to the henchies and enter Yak's Bend now."

I don't want EITHER side screwed over by unnatural shoehorning of the other's play mechanics. Please stop pretending the current state of Guild Wars is an oasis of balanced perfection between two play styles. If it was so perfect, why do they constantly gut out PvE mechanics in PvP almost every week?

Fallacy #2: You just want a Counterstrike fantasy game. Why don't you get off your lazy butt and earn your stuff.

Truth: YES we want PvP to be equal with all options open at the start like Counter Strike. Like Starcraft. Like Air Hockey. Like Checkers. Like Tennis. Like Battleship. Like Hops-scotch. Like Football. Like Marco Polo. Like Curling. Like Hot Dog Aerials. Like Ping Pong. Like Volleyball. Like Kick Ball. Like Old Maid. Like Gin Rummy. Like Poker. Like Street Fighter. Like Hide-and-Go Seek. Like Lawn Bowling...

... to get to the point, like every legitimate cometitive activity where your skillful play is king and the "league rules" don't limit your potential before a match begins! Thousands upon thousands of activities match up competitiors every day for the last few hundred years or so. WHY don't they go these same arguments? Because it is common sense that you DON'T put in anti-competitive, imbalancing play mechanics in a serious competitive activity.

"Earning" stuff from the league just so you can compete with the exact same set of full options as your opponent is WONDERFUL PvE. It is HORRIBLE competition. Forcing 100 must win PvP matches on a happy adventurer trying to access a new area is HORRIBLE PvE, but it is WONDERFUL PvP. The goal of PvE is to struggle through a steady set of challenges and exploration quests so that you can "earn" the tangible rewards at the end. That is the goal of PvE, but it is not the goal of competition.

Competition rewards one when he/she is able to go head up with an opponent completely un-aided or un-hindered by the powers-that-be, and come away victorious. The gear options you strive so hard for in PvE? Well, in all the activities I named above, starting with the same gear options as your opponent is a pre-requisite! It isn't even given a passing thought! How is a competition legitimate when the "league" influences the outcome before it starts?

"Hey Bobby, the baseball league office says you haven't hit the requisite 50 home runs yet this season. Go get your pink whiffle bat because you're up next to hit."

"Cynthia, c'mere for a sec. The league appreciate the 100 hours you've put into your poker matches. In another 150 hours, they'll let you draw three cards to go up against your opponents' five. Wear a smile on your face when it happens honey, because you've earned it."

I swear, it's as if some people have never seriously competed in anything in their lives to see how they ignore these truths. You may LIKE this system as it is, regardless of how much it goes against the grain of real skillful competition, but at least ackowledge it for what it is.

Yes, PvE is all warm and cuddly, bringing the community together. It's full of co-op opportunities, friends to be made, dances to be synched, colors to mix-n-match, items to unlock. Honestly, I enjoyed it all until I finished it. But forcing its play mechanics on PvP when the same is NOT done for PvE, is pure imbalance for one, and it is anti-competition for another. I don't want them to screw around both modes, so the true balance is...

-PvE continues to proceed relatively unmolested by forced PvP play mechanics

-PvP finally is able to proceed completely unmolested by forced PvE play mechanics

- Fans of both? Play both! Go back and forth as you wish... want to play unlocking games, PvE is there for you. Want to help legitimately beat down a human team to a pulp? We want a purely skillful PvP to be there for you, just as in every other serious competitive activity.

Anything less but UAX, such as doing something sane like cutting the Faction Point costs of gear down a full 90%, is still an offense to pure skillful play, but at least its yet another improvement on what should never have been a problem.

Fallacy #3 "If they implement full UAX and let them have it all from the start, why whatever will that mean to our dear PvE??

Truth: Lol, it's almost as if the slave driver is complaining because he no longer has his helpless minion to keep his thumb on. Again, in PvE you have all the freedom in the world to play pure PvE, or a lil' PvP... whatever. Why must your satisfaction of what is already a VERY full and uninterrupted experience in PvE play mechanics be diminished because of your desire to prevent other "less fortunate" gamers from having an equally full PvP experience with THEIR play mechanics? In no game that has both a solo/co-op and a seriously competitive PvP mode does anyone care if full UAX is available from the start. It's a given that the "system" doesn't help or hinder your opponet with initial gear access!

Still, since PvE is, as I said above, all about the "end prize" as the goal of long and comitted play, then of course you deserve significant rewards for your struggles, but not interference with PvP. The needs of each mode is too important to screw around with. With that in mind, let's ask Arena.net to remove PvP-related rewards from PvE altogether. In its place, put in so much pure PvE rewards, that people won't even think twice about this debate again.

Make people WANT to PvE four-six times if that's what they want. Have them meet with the gods of their professions up in their natural habitat for special, mystical magical solo adventures. Have the end prize for beating it with every character class so special, that they walk through towns instantly recognized as being all that and a bag of chips.

Maybe after meeting all the gods in the clouds, underworld, woods, etc... you can have an epic Boss fight with each of them as they descend to a less immortal state so you can have a chance. Each one is a different challenge, not just simply more brawls.

- Have a moral test of good and evil to defeat (or join with) Grenth. Your morbid curiosity can explore a playground of options you oversee human "lemmings" in a town going about their day, unaware of your helpful (or sadist) influence on their lives being saved by your grace, or allowed to demise in unfortunate deaths caused by your reluctance to interfere with Grenth's actions (each final result having an appropriate reward / punishment to your character).

- Go through a challenge of bringing together musical harmony, full of earthy visuals and colors with Melandru. Purely artistic and free flowing with no specific goal.

- With a specially powerful ethereal weapon in hand, have a classic mega-Boss battle against a 100-foot Balthasar AFTER you first defeat one of each type of unique enemy in the game.

- You try to please Dwayna by entertaining a group of poor children with your elaborate illusion magic tricks, not unlike Gandalf's firework show in LotR, butdone on a more personal level. Master your crescendo of tricks, overall timing, unique artistry, elaborate "combo" effects, and the all-important big finish, etc. to get the best response.

- With infinite energy as temporarily granted, the top, bottom, left and right side of one's screen each has an elemental skill bar for each element, slotted with four elemental skills. In 1st person view that takes place for four stages in floating through four different regions of Tyria (lava, montains, air, and sea), you must use the skills to defeat the forms of a constantly evolving Lyssa. Do you fight fire with fire? Or is Water skills appropriate for her current plan of attack? The confrontation is full of fast thinking adjustments and counter-adjustments on both sides.

And after you "impresss" all of the gods with your abilities you personally get favor and are returned to a special Pre-Ascalon where everything is just as beautiful as before. Additionally, you are only there with others who've ascended above ascension and earned their way there. Besides having your own special area, you receive a free gift from the gods once a week that you can show off in towns (new exclusive emotes? New dance animations? Etc.

A ton of work that's easier said than done? Yeah, but you get the idea. There is no reason to saddle PvP with a PvE rewards system, particularly when those connections interfere with the main purpose of each on the own. Pure PvE people can definitely be pampered to their satisfaction with more PvP content, forgetting about wanting to force PvP to go through something it's not best suited for. Again, I liked PvE when I cmpleted it. But once I fully moved on, I've been discouraged by the time and effort it takes to do what's basic common sense in any competitive activity other than Guld Wars.

silvertemplar · Jul 04, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Anyone ever played a little card game called : MAGIC: THE GATHERING ?

How does it work? You compile a deck of cards , lets call each card a "skill". Your only limitation is obviously the amount of cards you can take into "battle" and the cards in your collection [lets call your collection "unlocked skills"]. How do you gain more cards? You buy them. Sometimes you get rare cards [aka "elites"] via a deck you bought [random] or from someone you have beaten [pre-determined] or the best of them all via trade [as in swop cards with a buddy].

Does it require a "grind" to increase your collection [aka unlock skills] ? No
Does it require a "grind" to change your deck between "battles" ? No

I still believe GW is based on this card game, if M:TG can be successful in terms of just giving you all the "skills" and leaving it up to you to compile it properly then why can't GW?

Based further on my assumption i would imagine GW would extend their longevity by adding more and more skills [aka cards]. They would probably bring out a "[classname]-booster-pack" to add to you current [classname] list of skills. They can start a whole new "theme" with a whole new set of skills which can not be mixed with the original skills creating different types of tournaments etc........

Anyway my point is that if :

(a) PvP itself is complex enough [in terms of gameplay/rules]
(b) the amount of combination of skills [aka builds] are extremely large

then there is no reason to build "delays" into system to get to the CORE of the game.

Then it's actually like forcing you to play Chess with only pawns and win 500 times to unlock another piece [i.e. the bishop] .....So if delays/grind is necessary then you know what the conclusion is to points (a) and (b) :P

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Well if we are comparing the two, then I consider grinding to be working to get money to unlock more cards.

Dax · Jul 04, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Never played magic, but I've seen people copy the (I am assuming good) cards on a copy machine and stuff them into the plastic sleeves.... kinda the short cheesy workaround hence not earning anything....hey wait that sounds like a game I know.

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Haha, it is so funny to read the lame arguments that the anti unlock crowd puts out.

Grind is like working to earn money to buy the cards...

This fails on so many levels - for one, Anet doesn't make money by getting you to grind - they get money if you buy the game, if you convince others to buy the game, and if you buy the expansion; WotC gets money if you buy the cards. Hence you buy cards in MtG, and there is no need to in GW. You can hypothesize that they might hurt their business if UAE came out, I doubt it. I know my FPS buddies would be more likely to come play some good PvP if they didn't need to play PvE first.

Copying cards is like wanting UAE...

Right, so committing a crime is like asking for the rules to be changed. You make no sense Dax. You'd thik that MAYBE at least one person on the "please don't UAS" side would make a good argument, but your position is so weak that you can't. The anti-UAE position is based on the fact that people mistake GW for an MMO, and it isn't.

Dax · Jul 04, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Copying cards is like wanting UAE...

Right, so committing a crime is like asking for the rules to be changed. You make no sense Dax. You'd thik that MAYBE at least one person on the "please don't UAS" side would make a good argument, but your position is so weak that you can't. The anti-UAE position is based on the fact that people mistake GW for an MMO, and it isn't.

It probably makes no sense because I have no position on that. I just pointed out people copy cards and people will find ways to get around earning things Show me where I used UAS or UAE in my post.....sheesh get a life.

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

It probably makes no sense because I have no position on that. I just pointed out people copy cards and people will find ways to get around earning things Show me where I used UAS or UAE in my post.....sheesh get a life.

You didn't specifically, you instead simply said, "kinda the short cheesy workaround hence not earning anything....hey wait that sounds like a game I know.", which given your stance on the issue and the topic at hand is essentially an attack on those who support UAE. I doubt I misread your implication, your vehemence makes it pretty easy to decypher.

Dax · Jul 04, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I doubt I misread your implication, your vehemence makes it pretty easy to decypher.

You know I love a good argument, but it's a little hard when you and I are talking 2 different things. If you want to say my little post is irrelevant to the conversation...fine. But I'm sorry to tell you, you misread what I posted.

But any person who uses the word vehemence is cool in my book

Loviatar · Jul 04, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

arredondo Wheezer tuna

have you considered that the people who made the game have the decision in their hands and not the anti UA/E on the forums?

since they have the most to lose they would not alienate the hardcore anti pve people for no reason if it would not hurt another part of the game worse.

just because you (and myself to be honest) do not see where the damage would be or how much does not mean the damage would not happen.

many posts have been made stating that the PVE whiners got their way and ruined PVP.

i ask you to consider that the decision to not have UA/? was made as part of the core game and not just done at the last minute and was announced before the game was released and before any PVE SIGIL whineing occurred

by the way computer games just gave it 5 stars (out of 5)

and i agree ahead of time it is not the best pc gaming magazine but i pay 25 cents an issue so .......

this is not a flame and if offended by it i apologize but i dont think i was offensive

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

You know I love a good argument, but it's a little hard when you and I are talking 2 different things. If you want to say my little post is irrelevant to the conversation...fine. But I'm sorry to tell you, you misread what I posted.

But any person who uses the word vehemence is cool in my book

Lol, ok, then I misread it - you win... anyone who thinks using the word vehemence is cool is likewise cool in my book

silvertemplar · Jul 04, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Just on a side note: Magic: The Gathering actually is available as a software game as well.....[and you can play 1-on-1 online too] So you dont actually need to buy any cards , you just get some "dictionary-of-cards" to create your own virtual decks. So the whole "buy/copy grind" argument is moot. Alot of people actually use the game as a means to "experiment" with a deck they do not own in reality yet :P

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

7. People who whine about the grind are nubs, suck it up like we did in X MMO. The reality of it that people from almost every genre play this game; FPSers, RPGers, RTSers, and even racing sim people. People with MMO backround are not the majority in this game. One must only look at the number of complaints about grind to see that this is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

Heh. The target audience are those the game was made for AS IT IS NOW. Those who enjoy it AS IT IS NOW = target audience. If Arenanet wanted to target a different audience, they would have created GW as a CS clone. But they did not.

I'll give up on trying to explain something to you, I'm talking to a wall. Not surprising, actually.

GW is for those who dont enjoy counter strike, and was intended as such. People who dont like CS need games too. Has it ever occurred to you that if people would like to play CS they... would play CS?

There are plenty of first person shooter online clones. GW is a roleplay game. It is meant to be different, and not CS clone #101.

Only a finite number of people are capable of playing an online game. Fewer still are able to play any competitive online game. Of those remaining there is only a smaller pool that is willing to play an online game with a monthly fee. The simple answer is that they tried to appeal to as many genre gamers as possbile at the same time without perfecting any of it. Combine that with long time gamers get jaded and try something new and you have the playerbase that is guildwars. CS players will play CS, but they will play something else due to the repetitive nature of any game.

Tuna · Jul 05, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

have you considered that the people who made the game have the decision in their hands and not the anti UA/E on the forums?

Yes, however, I have also considered that if I do not voice my opinion nothing will happen. On the same note the more people I persuade the higher the chance of them taking symapthy on us.

Quote:

since they have the most to lose they would not alienate the hardcore anti pve people for no reason if it would not hurt another part of the game worse.

Two things:
1. Grammar
2. Proof

Quote:

just because you (and myself to be honest) do not see where the damage would be or how much does not mean the damage would not happen.

I may not be able to detect damage to the game with 100% accuracy but I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what is going on. On the same note, the developers are in the same boat as me (as seen in beta - retail jump).

Quote:

many posts have been made stating that the PVE whiners got their way and ruined PVP.

I wonder why...

Quote:

i ask you to consider that the decision to not have UA/? was made as part of the core game and not just done at the last minute and was announced before the game was released and before any PVE SIGIL whineing occurred

Yes, but during the beta skills were readily available all over the place, mostly accessable through skill charms. Most people assumed that it would be just as easy to acquire skills in retail.

I don't presonally agree with the Sigil drop increase because the old way kept a lot of crappy guild from GvGing. (I belive that was the intent in the first place anyway)

edit: why did someone resurect this ancient thread anyway?

Loviatar · Jul 05, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Tuna]

Quote:

Two things:
1. Grammar
2. Proof

1 is a cheap shot

2 only the decisions of the people who planned the game

Quote:

I wonder why...

that is my point as the game was *ruined* before a single whine so...........

Quote:

edit: why did someone resurect this ancient thread anyway?[/

i confess........he did it

Divinitys Creature · Jul 05, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Fallacy #1 "The game will be unfortunately split into two sides with UAX"

Truth: The game is already HALF split (unfortunately). PvE CAN IGNORE PvP AT THEIR LEISURE! They are NOT forced to endure PvP competitive play mechanics if they do not want. The biggest confusion lies on that single ignored point alone from the anti-UAX types in these forums. The 'RPG' of CORPG is completely accommodated. Those who yearn for the thrill of adventure have this game in the palms of their hands. But.....

Those who yearn for the thrill of legitimate competition have got to endure PvE play mechanics whether they want to or not. To play a purely skillful game, fully outfitted with options for BOTH sides to strategize from with no influence from league bias you have to put in HUNDREDS of PvE play mechanics.

"You jumped through 10,000 hoops? The league is pleased. Here's a few elites and a top tier weapon)"

You want a truly equal system you claim GW is? Then you need to go full UAX, or full forced-PvP elements in PvE. Pick one or the other, but don't be hypocritical by ignoring ONE mode has full freedom while the other one is attached to a PvE ball and chain. Here's your balance if you "upgraded" PvE:

"You won 500 PvP matches? The league is pleased. You may talk to the henchies and enter Yak's Bend now."

I don't want EITHER side screwed over by unnatural shoehorning of the other's play mechanics. Please stop pretending the current state of Guild Wars is an oasis of balanced perfection between two play styles. If it was so perfect, why do they constantly gut out PvE mechanics in PvP almost every week?

Fallacy #2: You just want a Counterstrike fantasy game. Why don't you get off your lazy butt and earn your stuff.

Truth: YES we want PvP to be equal with all options open at the start like Counter Strike. Like Starcraft. Like Air Hockey. Like Checkers. Like Tennis. Like Battleship. Like Hops-scotch. Like Football. Like Marco Polo. Like Curling. Like Hot Dog Aerials. Like Ping Pong. Like Volleyball. Like Kick Ball. Like Old Maid. Like Gin Rummy. Like Poker. Like Street Fighter. Like Hide-and-Go Seek. Like Lawn Bowling...

... to get to the point, like every legitimate cometitive activity where your skillful play is king and the "league rules" don't limit your potential before a match begins! Thousands upon thousands of activities match up competitiors every day for the last few hundred years or so. WHY don't they go these same arguments? Because it is common sense that you DON'T put in anti-competitive, imbalancing play mechanics in a serious competitive activity.

"Earning" stuff from the league just so you can compete with the exact same set of full options as your opponent is WONDERFUL PvE. It is HORRIBLE competition. Forcing 100 must win PvP matches on a happy adventurer trying to access a new area is HORRIBLE PvE, but it is WONDERFUL PvP. The goal of PvE is to struggle through a steady set of challenges and exploration quests so that you can "earn" the tangible rewards at the end. That is the goal of PvE, but it is not the goal of competition.

Competition rewards one when he/she is able to go head up with an opponent completely un-aided or un-hindered by the powers-that-be, and come away victorious. The gear options you strive so hard for in PvE? Well, in all the activities I named above, starting with the same gear options as your opponent is a pre-requisite! It isn't even given a passing thought! How is a competition legitimate when the "league" influences the outcome before it starts?

"Hey Bobby, the baseball league office says you haven't hit the requisite 50 home runs yet this season. Go get your pink whiffle bat because you're up next to hit."

"Cynthia, c'mere for a sec. The league appreciate the 100 hours you've put into your poker matches. In another 150 hours, they'll let you draw three cards to go up against your opponents' five. Wear a smile on your face when it happens honey, because you've earned it."

I swear, it's as if some people have never seriously competed in anything in their lives to see how they ignore these truths. You may LIKE this system as it is, regardless of how much it goes against the grain of real skillful competition, but at least ackowledge it for what it is.

Yes, PvE is all warm and cuddly, bringing the community together. It's full of co-op opportunities, friends to be made, dances to be synched, colors to mix-n-match, items to unlock. Honestly, I enjoyed it all until I finished it. But forcing its play mechanics on PvP when the same is NOT done for PvE, is pure imbalance for one, and it is anti-competition for another. I don't want them to screw around both modes, so the true balance is...

-PvE continues to proceed relatively unmolested by forced PvP play mechanics

-PvP finally is able to proceed completely unmolested by forced PvE play mechanics

- Fans of both? Play both! Go back and forth as you wish... want to play unlocking games, PvE is there for you. Want to help legitimately beat down a human team to a pulp? We want a purely skillful PvP to be there for you, just as in every other serious competitive activity.

Anything less but UAX, such as doing something sane like cutting the Faction Point costs of gear down a full 90%, is still an offense to pure skillful play, but at least its yet another improvement on what should never have been a problem.

Fallacy #3 "If they implement full UAX and let them have it all from the start, why whatever will that mean to our dear PvE??

Truth: Lol, it's almost as if the slave driver is complaining because he no longer has his helpless minion to keep his thumb on. Again, in PvE you have all the freedom in the world to play pure PvE, or a lil' PvP... whatever. Why must your satisfaction of what is already a VERY full and uninterrupted experience in PvE play mechanics be diminished because of your desire to prevent other "less fortunate" gamers from having an equally full PvP experience with THEIR play mechanics? In no game that has both a solo/co-op and a seriously competitive PvP mode does anyone care if full UAX is available from the start. It's a given that the "system" doesn't help or hinder your opponet with initial gear access!

Still, since PvE is, as I said above, all about the "end prize" as the goal of long and comitted play, then of course you deserve significant rewards for your struggles, but not interference with PvP. The needs of each mode is too important to screw around with. With that in mind, let's ask Arena.net to remove PvP-related rewards from PvE altogether. In its place, put in so much pure PvE rewards, that people won't even think twice about this debate again.

Make people WANT to PvE four-six times if that's what they want. Have them meet with the gods of their professions up in their natural habitat for special, mystical magical solo adventures. Have the end prize for beating it with every character class so special, that they walk through towns instantly recognized as being all that and a bag of chips.

Maybe after meeting all the gods in the clouds, underworld, woods, etc... you can have an epic Boss fight with each of them as they descend to a less immortal state so you can have a chance. Each one is a different challenge, not just simply more brawls.

- Have a moral test of good and evil to defeat (or join with) Grenth. Your morbid curiosity can explore a playground of options you oversee human "lemmings" in a town going about their day, unaware of your helpful (or sadist) influence on their lives being saved by your grace, or allowed to demise in unfortunate deaths caused by your reluctance to interfere with Grenth's actions (each final result having an appropriate reward / punishment to your character).

- Go through a challenge of bringing together musical harmony, full of earthy visuals and colors with Melandru. Purely artistic and free flowing with no specific goal.

- With a specially powerful ethereal weapon in hand, have a classic mega-Boss battle against a 100-foot Balthasar AFTER you first defeat one of each type of unique enemy in the game.

- You try to please Dwayna by entertaining a group of poor children with your elaborate illusion magic tricks, not unlike Gandalf's firework show in LotR, butdone on a more personal level. Master your crescendo of tricks, overall timing, unique artistry, elaborate "combo" effects, and the all-important big finish, etc. to get the best response.

- With infinite energy as temporarily granted, the top, bottom, left and right side of one's screen each has an elemental skill bar for each element, slotted with four elemental skills. In 1st person view that takes place for four stages in floating through four different regions of Tyria (lava, montains, air, and sea), you must use the skills to defeat the forms of a constantly evolving Lyssa. Do you fight fire with fire? Or is Water skills appropriate for her current plan of attack? The confrontation is full of fast thinking adjustments and counter-adjustments on both sides.

And after you "impresss" all of the gods with your abilities you personally get favor and are returned to a special Pre-Ascalon where everything is just as beautiful as before. Additionally, you are only there with others who've ascended above ascension and earned their way there. Besides having your own special area, you receive a free gift from the gods once a week that you can show off in towns (new exclusive emotes? New dance animations? Etc.

A ton of work that's easier said than done? Yeah, but you get the idea. There is no reason to saddle PvP with a PvE rewards system, particularly when those connections interfere with the main purpose of each on the own. Pure PvE people can definitely be pampered to their satisfaction with more PvP content, forgetting about wanting to force PvP to go through something it's not best suited for. Again, I liked PvE when I cmpleted it. But once I fully moved on, I've been discouraged by the time and effort it takes to do what's basic common sense in any competitive activity other than Guld Wars.

A brilliant post and explains the need for UA quite well. The faction rewards were a compromise, since we never believed we'd get UA, but they gimped the compromise too. The costs have to reduce by 10 times or more or rewards increased by the same factor. And that would just bring the pvp rewards into the scope of a compromise instead of a vicious insult. The real solution would be Unlock All.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

arredondo Wheezer tuna

have you considered that the people who made the game have the decision in their hands and not the anti UA/E on the forums?

since they have the most to lose they would not alienate the hardcore anti pve people for no reason if it would not hurt another part of the game worse.

just because you (and myself to be honest) do not see where the damage would be or how much does not mean the damage would not happen.

many posts have been made stating that the PVE whiners got their way and ruined PVP.

i ask you to consider that the decision to not have UA/? was made as part of the core game and not just done at the last minute and was announced before the game was released and before any PVE SIGIL whineing occurred

by the way computer games just gave it 5 stars (out of 5)

and i agree ahead of time it is not the best pc gaming magazine but i pay 25 cents an issue so .......

this is not a flame and if offended by it i apologize but i dont think i was offensive

Maybe they just want to save face and implementing Unlock All would mean they admit their mistake.

The sigil whining was relentless and the PvE'ers got their trader, without any gimping - like the price being 1 million gp which is about the same order of error as they have done with Faction. Notice how PvP players didn't whine about the PvE players getting what they wanted. Why, because we could understand they might consider having to win HoH as grind when they just want a place to hang out and role play.

IxChel · Jul 05, 2005, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Anyone who feels that they deserve to go into PvP with an advantage other than their skill is an emotional child, who can't understand the nature of competition, the value of skill or the importance of fairness, and is probably playing RPGs as it is an area they can succeed in without skill, simply by copying the builds others have thought up and buying the good stuff on ebay.

Hear! Hear! PvP "competition" should be on a level playing field.

I'm a casual player.... and I don't like starting with a 10% (or more) dis-advantage because I give away items in my PvE play to help others rather than hording them, or spending hours of mind-numbing work "farming", or skirting the rules and buying stuff over EBay. PvP play should be about raw skill and not about "who's-got-the-better-stuffs".

Most of my friends (who play Guild Wars) have full-time jobs, a wife, a few pets, and some even have children. We are the ones who will gladly buy the expansion packs without blinking an eye about its pricing (I bought 4 copies of Guild Wars to send to my friends); a few hundred dollars for good-clean-fun is cheap. That said, I'm not about to cheat and I don't like being put at a disadvantage to those who are on summer vacation with nothing else to do but grind for stuffs.